7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:6-8, NKJV

Verse 7 must bear the same rule as shown in verse 8.

It is beyond dispute that the Spirit, the water and the blood are three separate entities agreeing as one. We would not think it reasonable or logical or scriptural to say these three separate entities are really one and the same, as entities.

Their commonality is their agreement as witnesses. In proper context, the same language rules would apply in verse 7 or the exegesis (method of hermeneutics) would be flawed. The oneness lies in their deity, purpose and all the attributes that make each part of the Godhead.

I will also offer to communicate individually with anyone. However, as the opinions I’m dealing with have been presented openly and publicly, front and center on Facebook, I will respond accordingly.

At times my responses to each point will not be in sequence inasmuch as the points presented are more than somewhat scrambled.

Al, I think that “clearly seeing” the Holy Trinity in Genesis 1:26 is a bit of a stretch.

Bruce, perhaps when you finish reading this you and others will realize just where the ‘bit of a stretch’ really is. 

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV.

As for Queen Victoria  and the Royal or more accurately ‘colloquial’,  ‘We are not amused’.

Perhaps you can show me where the King of Kings and/or the Godhead says, “We are not amused” about anything, never mind this important matter.

So, to try and pass off the scriptural evidence of the Trinity (your word not mine) as a stretch and then on top of that subordinate/reduce God’s heavenly Word on the matter, to a nonchalant earthly “we are not amused” piece of slang, is closer to blaspheming the Holy Spirit than I would ever want to get, if it already isn’t crossing the line.

We haven’t yet fully explored the matter of using secularism and vain man-made tradition, religious or otherwise as a standard to evaluate and judge God’s Word. When the Word has the final say (John 12:48), on one and all who go that route, good luck with that because that’s all you’ll have to go on. I can’t think of anything the Godhead has said or done that was based on luck. Can you?

Scripture unequivocally recognizes and demonstrates that we have:God the Father- whom Jesus Himself and the Holy Spirit acknowledge,
Jesus Christ- whom God the Father and the Holy Spirit acknowledge
The Holy Spirit whom Christ and God the Father acknowledge

In other words all three acknowledge each other and none other as part of the ‘whole’. The three thus witness to each other and testify to us, in scripture as a ‘threesome only’ as far as the Godhead is concerned. In fact, Luke 3:22 and 1 John 5:7 bring it all home.

21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." Luke 3:21-22, NKJV

Father – Son – Holy Spirit

Welcome...  to the only church that Jesus built!

Matthew 16:18-19

48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.  49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:48-49, NKJV 

25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.  26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.  John 14:25-26, NKJV 

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. NKJV

Trinitarianism

For the purposes and context of this discussion actual Trinitarian doctrine is partly defined as god existing as three persons (Greek- hypostases) but is one being…

The Nicene Creed was originally drawn up in during the First Council of Nicaea, in modern day Turkey in 325 AD. It was revised at the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD. Catholicism picked up on it ‘making it Catholic’ probably issuing it during the Council of Constantinople, even though this act was first explicitly stated later at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD.

Interestingly enough the bible emphatically states the faith had already been ‘once for all delivered’ with the book of Revelation having been written in AD 98. The bible itself contains no such thing as the ‘Nicene Creed’.

The mess’ in the garage could be any doctrine or belief that contrary to God’s Word.

This time it’s ‘Catholicism’.

What’s even ‘messier’ is when people latch on to something new to themselves (even though it’s old). and try to rationalize and justify it. It’s like telling a lie. You end up telling one lie after another lie to cover up the first one not to mention remembering all the lies to keep your story straight. What a conundrum! I’ve taken the liberty of adjusting the format a bit to simplify the unravelling of the web that has been woven.

I’ve numbered the assertions trying to address each point separately as much as possible though it’s not entirely feasible. The contentions are staged with props.

To put that another way, plumes of smoke and walls of mirrors, but no scriptural substance. 

No offense but doesn’t the question raised in number 4, seem a bit mocking and condescending?

The plurality is not defined as Trinitarian. Could it be two? Could it be four?

Well, in fact yes the plurality is defined as a Godhead consisting of three distinct beings/persons as scripture clearly shows the ‘three’ as the Godhead. Nowhere in God’s Word is there an iota of evidence suggesting less than or more than the three.

The three as anybody can notice do not disregard any other one to make it a Godhead of two. Nor do they show anywhere where a fourth is added. 

The word ‘God’ as used in all of Genesis one is ‘Elohiym’. Notably it is the plural of the word God in Hebrew.

Al, I think that “clearly seeing” the Holy Trinity in Genesis 1:26 is a bit of a stretch.

Thus to start with, far from being “a bit of a stretch” the Godhead (Elohiym- plural for God) at the very least does exist.

I also hesitate to use the term ‘Holy Trinity’ for the simple reason, it is not a scriptural term. What is scriptural is ‘Deity’, Godhead’, and ‘Elohiym’ (plural word for God). If one starts to use non-scriptural terms, it just one of those many steps, some smaller-some larger,  leading to wandering and meandering down various paths away from the many biblical warnings like the following.You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you Deuteronomy 4:2
That you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written 1 Corinthians 4:6
And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written 2 Corinthians 4:13
Faith once for all delivered Jude 3; Faith  comes by hearing Word of God Ro 10:17; Whatever is not of faith is sin Ro 14:23b; The words I speak shall judge you on the last day John 12:48


It doesn’t take long before one step leads to another and the myriad of steps in many seemingly small but different directions leads to drifting from the truth, taking you further off the path . Remember, most ‘off’ the trail paths usually begin with some small innocuous first step. 

Colossians 2:9: For in Him all the fullness of the Deity dwells bodily.

Deity: theiotes (thi-ot'-ace); divinity (abstractly): - Godhead. From theios (thi'-os); godlike (neuter as noun, Divinity): - divine, Godhead.*

(Queen Victoria, born: May 24, 1819, Kensignton Palace, London, United Kingdom, Died: January 22, 1901, Osborne, East Cowes, United Kingdom, Buried: February 4, 1901, Royal Mausoleum)

Probably don’t even have to wonder about whether the Queen Victoria is now amused. When royalty stands before the Lord, will she say as Bruce Sullivan rationalizes, “We are not amused”?

*New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

By the way, the word ‘God’ as used in all of Genesis one is ‘Elohiym’, notably the plural of the word God in Hebrew.

Thus, the Godhead (Elohiym- plural for God) does exist.

Therefore the Godhead was involved in creation, with all things made through Christ specifically (John 1).

The Word Godhead (deity) is used in

Romans 1:20, For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV.

NT:2305 Greek-theiotees, divinity, divine nature, (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

Colossians 2:9, For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, NKJV.

NT:2320 Greek-theotees, deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead- (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

Theotes indicates the "divine" essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His "divine" nature and properties. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)

Col 1:13-18

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

NKJV

John 1:1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. NKJV

​I ask you. When was ‘In the beginning’ as referred to in John 1:1-3?

Inasmuch as these verses specifically mention that “All things were made through Him (Jesus) and without Him nothing was made that was made”, the only possibility is that “in the beginning” here means “In the beginning” as in Genesis 1:1.

And what does verse 2 say? It says that He (Jesus) was “in the beginning” with God. The Spirit was present. Jesus was present and so was the Father. Yes, creation attests to the Godhead’s presence.

I’m hoping others who have been exposed to the illusion of plausible alternatives will see through the glut of man-made doctrines and empty philosophy. The likes of which cleverly but vainly chip away at scriptural authority. How ironic, that the ‘bible alone authority’ both you and Caleb publicly mock and deny, will be your ultimate downfall (John 12:48).

I also realize that I am up against Hebrews 6:4-8 as it pertains to the will of those who persist in error. Yet, my hope lies in Luke 1:37 and Matthew 19:26.

While the two applications are different, the premise that “all things are possible with God” is a universal scriptural truth, not dependent on man for its power.

Here’s where the stretch is.

It is a stretch incredibly beyond ‘belief/faith’ to suggest there is no biblical clarity on this matter.

The confusion is within you caught up in the web weaved by all the distorted man-made doctrines you have drifted over to.

I will pray that you get ‘without’ from under this darkness posing as light and get back to the real light.

Col 2:2-8

2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

NKJV

Regarding Romans 1

In the first chapter of Romans, Paul is simply underscoring that the evidence for God (i.e. separate and apart from His creatures) is made manifest by creation (thereby leaving men without excuse for worshipping the creation rather than the Creator). It does not come even close to suggesting that the triune nature of God is revealed by creation. If it is, please show me how creation reveals that the One God is a Trinity of Divine Person.

Ok, inasmuch as the Godhead has clearly been demonstrated as being involved in the creation, the Godhead being three, namely God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit, how about this for tying in the Godhead in Romans 1:20?

When people peddle so much incredulous false doctrine, it’s sometimes intriguing as to where to begin. Much like dealing with a garage full of cards stacked floor to ceiling and wall to wall, every single one of them different. It feels like this ginormous heap, cards piled upon cards is stacked against you as your task is to put them all in order. However, it is not. This garage isn’t yours.

Again, it’s kind of like cleaning an extremely messy disorganized garage (mine in particular). I open the big door, take a look and ask myself, “Ok, where is the best place to begin?” Either way, this garage belongs to someone else but it’s a garage full of false doctrine, man-made traditions, philosophies, beliefs, experiences and hand me downs. One thing you can ascertain is whether it is from God. Remember, God is not the author of confusion. Keep that in mind.

My approach doesn’t change much. Instead of getting dismayed by the enormity of the entire clutter, I still simply pick one thing and get started. One thing leads to another and by and large everything gets put in order and in it’s place. In this case- everything in the garage is trash.üGod is not the author of confusion. (1 Corinthians 14:12-13)
üAs He says, ‘there’s a time and place for everything’. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)
üThe more confusion I see in what’s before me, the more obvious it’s not from God. All of creation is by design, so no surprise. “And God saw that it was good”   
​

The plurality is not defined as Trinitarian. Could it be two? Could it be four?

At the risk of being redundant, remember, that the Godhead is three distinct persons or beings in the Godhead or Deity. It is not three in one God or “One God (singular) is a Trinity of Divine Person” (singular) as you put it.

Specifically, “the One God is a Trinity of Divine Person.”

The oneness has to do with singularity of purpose, as in all being on the same page, so to speak. Jesus prayed that we might all be one as He was one with God the Father. Further: Especially verse 7-8

6 This is He who came by water and blood — Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.